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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.10 23:22:41 -
[1] - Quote
point blank.... if this TUG... or bowhead or what ever name ya give it... can not with stand a multiboxer with 40 suicide tornados then its worthless. plain and simple....
This ship will be used by lots of folks in high sec to move their fleets around in highsec.... and yes incursioners will be the number one users...
BUT NOT if the ship can not not be fitted or skilled in a way to make it next to impossible to gank before concord can show up to save it. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.10 23:29:09 -
[2] - Quote
Furthermore... i can tank out an ORCA and get over 450,000 EHP on it... this Tug boat will be hauling far more valuble cargo... thus should have an achievable tank well over 500,000 EHP other wise its worthless...
you really think incursioners.. your target market... are going to use this ship to move their multi billion isk battleships around with out there being some secruity that the ship will be stupidly hard to gank....
also the cargo should be closer to 10k not 5k.... or give it another bay for ammo that way mods and parts in the cargo bay... and ammo in the ammo bay |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 00:06:39 -
[3] - Quote
Looking at this idea of your going to be ganked by a handfull of battle ships... is well unrealistic.... there are alot of mulitboxers face it... this TUG will be the number one target of the 40+ multi boxing players.... and they will just use battle cruisers or t1 battle ships ..... they do it now for normal frieghters and orcas....
if your going to give this TUG a remote chance of survival.. it will have to be able to with stand a multi boxer attack... not a few individual players with a few battle ships. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 19:51:04 -
[4] - Quote
again.... the ehp is not highe enough..... again at present... an ORCA fitt right can have over 450k ehp.... the BOWHEAD will be hauling far more valuble cargo... so it should be around 550k ehp at a minimum..... |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
the Bowhead is a great idea... one that has been in the kicking around for months if not year or so.... but its a waiste of developement time to put a ship in the game that is not going to stand up against the kind of punishment "real" gankers are going to through at it..
A large group of gankers do not care about how much isk they spend vs how much they could get from kiling one of these Bowhead... they only care about getting the kill mail...
Most of the multi boxing gankers gank big pricey ships not for the reward of isk... but for the sheer pleasure they get from cause the victim pilot grief....
in short give this boat a chance to survive the GREIFERs attack....
PVP is all good, pirate play is fun.... but most of the time PVP in eve is a one sided deal... your either getting alphaed off the feild in seconds ... or your getting bumped around till the gankers can finish you off before concord shows up in highsec..
in low/null again most fights are one sided rearstompings.... there is not much real PVP... it Grief vs other players...
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:13:50 -
[6] - Quote
the hull on the Bowhead should be about half.. or at lease 1/3 that of the Rorqual.... as this ship is about half the size of the Rorq.... the sheils should be about 30,000 and the armor should be about where it is now....
also please look at increasing the cargo hold a little... closer to 10k or add in an ammo bay that can hold around 5k
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:21:30 -
[7] - Quote
The whole idea of this boat is the give players a way to move their fleets around "mostly" in highsec. Not to give gankers a new easy target.
This ship also has alot of promising useful talents that will be used in wormwholes, lowsec, and nullsec.
But if please not try to figure out what it needs by basic numbers or stats... look at the real time play and attitudes of players.... Its not about how much it will cost... or how much i have to spend to kill one ... its about how usefull is this ship going to be..
Think of the nestor.... even with the well frankly last pathetic change to it with the almost useless fleet hanger that can not even carry an astero..... its still a very under used not in any way shape or form usefull ship for the masses....
Looking logically... this ship is about half the size of the Roqual right....
so give it 1/3 of the structure armor and sheils fo the roqual.... add in an ammo bay of 5k or increase the cargo bay up to 10k with skills or somthing |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:30:56 -
[8] - Quote
the pros and cons of PVP in highec... more honestly is pure ganking out side of Wardec..... is not the point of this thread... this is about the BOWHEAD... not game philosophy or how to stop ganking...
The matter is this bowhead should be a very tough to gank ship.... it should be a safer then current means of moving incruision ships around.... otherwise why should any of the many many incursioners use this ship instead of the current way they move thier stuff around ... |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:36:25 -
[9] - Quote
and again i point out the fact... that current game machinics allow an ORCA to acheive a little over 450 ehp and still remain a very usefull and talented ship for many aspects not just mining command..
This Bowhead should be at least 20% TO 40% tougher then the Orca...
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:42:09 -
[10] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Fruckton Haulalot wrote:and again i point out the fact... that current game machinics allow an ORCA to acheive a little over 450 ehp and still remain a very usefull and talented ship for many aspects not just mining command..
This Bowhead should be at least 20% TO 40% tougher then the Orca...
the orca's current ehp is not intentional, it was due to the addition of hull rigs and the orca has a lot of hull using it as a comparison to the bowhead is p dumb and you should feel dumb
the BOWhead is in line with the ORCA and the Rorqual... so use them as comparisons is a logical and justifiable means of figured where the Bowhead stats should be..
calling folks names only shows that your just trolling or you have no real helpfull suggestions for the Bowhead in either case your views are not relivent in this thread and keep disctracting from the topic.
The Bowhead from its first concept through the many many debates can and will be a great new ship with many new aspects and uses to the game.
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 21:47:41 -
[11] - Quote
again you folks are way off topic.... this thread is not about your opinions on pvp... nor the validity of right or wrong pirate play... its about the bowhead....
while most of you are very good at typing very well thought out arguments and or logical arguments for both sides of the debate... lets talk more about Bowhead....
The Bowhead will bring some new aspect to the game that alot of folks will like... and some will hate... but lets realistically give reasonable thought to it instead of the worthless tangents yall are on now
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 22:11:48 -
[12] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.
this was a misleading post..... 420 ehp is still very gankable...... you can get 450 ehp on orcas now.... and they still get ganked.
the Bowhead will be hauling far more vaulable cargo ... the bowhead is a much bigger ship..... and its has 0... let me say that again it has 0 combat ability, 0 command ability, 0 means to do anything other then haul fitted ships around.... so if its only purpose in eve is to haul other fitted ships around then its specity should be able to protect its cargo with more tank than an ORCA |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 22:17:17 -
[13] - Quote
Martha Stewart Living wrote:"Nevyn Auscent" wrote: If a gank is automatically profitable vs bare hulls only (with rigs) in the SMA that match that intended purpose and no cargo at all in the bowhead, then the ship is useless for it's claimed purpose.
If I'm parsing your writing correctly, you're saying that if it's profitable to gank a bowhead with that has only stripped Pirate Battleships with rigs in it, with no fittings, that it's useless, as you might as well just fly the ships yourself. But the problem is that's the only point at which it becomes profitable. When you stuff it full with the most expensive ships in the game. It still has the intended purpose of moving assembled ships around, and I think it would still be pretty useful for moving cruisers, battlecruisers, destroyers, etc. It's just not profitable at those levels either.
Gankers are not always out for profit... they are out for the kill mail or the "joy" of making other pilots lose a fortune...
arguing the profit vs risk on what it takes to make a "profit" on killing a bowhead is not acurate... you have to take in the variable of the massive corps, groups, multiboxers who will kill these ships for pure spite. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 22:59:58 -
[14] - Quote
the whole point of this ship is so you can move your battleships in one peice.. 1 pilot 1 ship.... if you have to have more than just this ship then the point of the ship is lost....
again there is no reason to sink money into the bowhead if it requires a fleet to keep it alive in a gank...
again there is no reason to sink money into the bowhead if you have to use another "TANK" tomove all the valiable mods...
The Bowhead needs to be able to Tank against a 40 man catalyst gank fleet.... if the Bowhead can not survive a 40 man Catalyst gank fleet for at least 1 full minute then dont bother.
and watch the Bowhead go the wayside of the Nestor another attempt to add a nice new ship that went horrible wrong |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 23:45:44 -
[15] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: the same principle still applies use less expensive hulls
Live in less expensive space. Don't use Capitals. Blah blah, you want to try and tell people to use bad tools for the job, don't constantly defend your 'need' to have expensive things and be able to run SRP's in return. The same principle does not apply, you use the correct tool for the job. We are also assuming the person is actually max tanking the Bowhead here. Not fitting it for agility & warp speed in which case it would be profitable to gank while carrying more expensive hulls. Good RNG says even at MAX tank it can still be profitable to gank carrying marauders, certainly profitable to gank carrying rigged T3's, and probably profitable to gank if filled with a bunch of smaller T2 ships also. So, the EHP bump that CCP gave it was needed to fufill it's intended role, It was not over the top, and it's EHP was not sufficient before because CCP were basing it on pretty much the cheapest possible option you could be using the Bowhead for, not a realistic situation. Does it need even further EHP? Not that I can see either.
the very small bump to the shields and hull are a step in the right dicrection but again... it still weaker then an ORCA.......... this ship will be hauling many times over the value that an orca can haul...... there for the BOWHEAD should have much higher tank to protect the cargo. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.11 23:56:53 -
[16] - Quote
PVPers and Gankers are a core part of EVE ... they always have been and always will be.... but from time to time the highsec or carebears if you will need a some love too....
Saying that the Bowhead has to be easily gankable is counter productive on all parts.
look at null and lowsec.... PVPers and Gankers and pirates cry all the time cause they have no one to shoot... and want to find ways to force highsec bears to have to go down and be shot at...
here is a thought... stop makeing low/null so hostile to live in and you might see more people there... kill players who venture down there and well they dont stay... they go back to highsec for their fun...
then gankers/pirates demand ways to make easier to gank players in high sec....
established characters/groups being able to kill everyone only ends with a result of few and few indies/pvers.. then eventually few players means fewer profits for CCP its a downword spiral...
Give highsec bears their love this time and find some way to exploit or demand a easy way for you to grief later
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.12 00:25:37 -
[17] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Veers Belvar wrote: Yes, it's a more rarified atmosphere of competition, which doesn't revolve around tears and blown up ships.
lmbo Veers Belvar wrote: CCP isn't "beholden" to anything, but to the extent that they want to help incursion runners move their ships around highsec, and apparently they do, it's important to design the ship in such a way that incursion runners will actually use it. Otherwise, why bother?
tail wagging the dog again the ship isn't tailored specifically for incursioners hell, the first post of the thread doesn't even mention incursions
acually this ship is tailored for incursioners specifically.... it original concept and thoughts of it were in forums by incursioners... it was also discussed at some length with incursion groups of what we wanted out of the ship concept...
supprised a forum troll like you was not aware that there have been numorous threads on this so saying its not tailored specifically for incursioners is not accurate.. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 00:34:25 -
[18] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Fruckton Haulalot wrote:acually this ship is tailored for incursioners specifically.... it original concept and thoughts of it were in forums by incursioners... it was also discussed at some length with incursion groups of what we wanted out of the ship concept...
supprised a forum troll like you was not aware that there have been numorous threads on this so saying its not tailored specifically for incursioners is not accurate.. even if everything you said is true and ccp's motivation for making this ship was lifted directly from incursioner wishlist threads, it STILL doesn't obligate them to kowtow to your every wish i'm not sure how much more plainly I can put this, it is just not a thing they have to do
its not a matter of "feeling of inttilement" its more of a matter dont waste time putting a ship in that both CCPs the CSMs and the incursioners have been kicking around for months almost a year into the game saying its what you asked for when its not.... all the time and energy wasted and feelings of trust and being part of community get slapped down when you take the concept say here its what you asked for ... then come to find its just gank bait or a way to make it easier for Ganker/greifers to destory what you worked hard to put together.
entitled no.... but promised somthing usefull then handed a gimpy waste of time ship yea a little resentment... |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 00:40:11 -
[19] - Quote
In no way am i saying make the ship immortal.
i am saying make it able to survive long enough for highsec concord to get there and save it. in lowsec nullsec.... fleets would destroy this thing with no real issues... but in high sec it should be so costly and difficult that folks dont bother trying to gank it.
the tank on this bowhead should be at least 10% better then an ORCA... or around 30% of a rorqual |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.12 00:45:15 -
[20] - Quote
Deadly Hobbitses wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Let us know what you think.
BOWHEAD
Ore Freighter Bonus: 5% bonus to inertia modifier per level 5% bonus to ship maintenance array capacity per level
Role Bonus: 90% reduction in jump fatigue generation
Slot layout: 0H, 3M, 3L, 3R; 0 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 1350 PWG, 215 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 21000 / 11000 / 39500 Capacitor (amount / recharge) : 3900 / 235000 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 65 / .0675 / 640000000 / 1.37 / 59.89s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 51.5km / 45 / 3 Capacity (cargo / ship maintenance array): 4000 / 1300000 (goes up to 1.6 something with ore freighter 5) Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 3200
edit: base HP and bonuses updated based on feedback.
How about shaking things up a bit and adding a little bit of uniqueness to these things? Increase base SMA volume to 1750000 Install 2.5LY jump drive Adjust hp/capacitor as needed Remove fatigue bonus Role Bonus: Jump drive gate scanner (renders vessel's jump drive capable of locking onto stargates remotely in the absence of a cynosural field) When activated, the ship would be capable of using its jump drive to jump to a cyno or a gate in any system which is in range. If a system is chosen, the ship would jump to a random gate in the system at normal jump-in range. This ability to shorten one's journey by means of bypassing some systems along the way would give the ship purpose while the low jump range and buildup of fatigue would help to prevent it being used as easily for force projection. In the case of highsec incursioners this might be enough of a buff to make it worth putting their shiny toys in as opposed to just flying them in a high hp travel fit.
Neat twist but goes back to the whole jump drive thing....
This should i feel should not be able to use jump drives or jump bridges for that matter.... moving the battleships inside from place the place is the purpose ofcourse... but some travel time still needs to be part of it.... otherwise you just have whole groups jumping the fleets instantly to new location... so the whole power projection becomes issues again... |
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.11.12 01:01:08 -
[21] - Quote
It would move no faster than a carrier in nullsec and if used to jump about without cynos in lowsec, nullsec or when you have kill rights or are at war could have hilarious consequences. If the ship is incapable of moving vessels faster than a person could fly them manually it will prove to be of little or no use to anyone who doesn't want to just afk around in it.[/quote]
this boat will haul up to three battleships.... in one trip... instead of a player having to fly three times he makes 1 trip.... hmmm seems faster to me...
what your suggesting in my opinion would be rather well "OP" |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.11.12 02:11:40 -
[22] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:CCP Rise: since this thread is clearly demonstrating that people are too stupid to understand that base HP is not fitted EHP, remove all the slots.
we understand the differece just fine... you dont seem to understand a TUG boat designed to carry billions in cargo aka battle ships for incursions has less TOTAL EHP then a fully fit fully skilled with best implants orca. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2014.11.12 02:21:45 -
[23] - Quote
The bowhead again... will be used by players who have multiple battle ships fit they need to move around mostly in highsec....
this ship should be closer to this
BOWHEAD
Ore Freighter Bonus: 5% bonus to inertia modifier per level 5% bonus to ship maintenance array capacity per level
Role Bonus: 90% reduction in jump fatigue generation
Slot layout: 0H, 3M, 3L, 3R; 0 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 1350 PWG, 215 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 30000 / 10000 / 80000 Capacitor (amount / recharge) : 3900 / 235000 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 65 / .0675 / 640000000 / 1.37 / 59.89s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 51.5km / 45 / 3 Capacity (cargo / ship maintenance array): 10000 / 1300000 (goes up to 1.6 something with ore freighter 5) Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 3200
this makes its sheilds twice as strong as an orca.... and armor a little less.....hull only 10k better then an orca....
you still have the rigs slots mids slots and low slots to customize per player tank speed cargospace agility and the like.... gives it a much closer to what will be needed to be ganker resistant
also a cargo hold usefull for carrier mods/ammo of a proper amount. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2014.11.13 08:19:59 -
[24] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Fruckton Haulalot wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Marlona Sky wrote: Why do they need more than one bs? I don't run incursions so I'm not up on their current meta.
There are different ships in an HQ incursion fleet. Depending on whom you fly with there will be snipers, dps, logi, and the drone bunny. Yes some of them will be pirate hulls (nightmare, mach, vindi) but you can also see the occasional hyperion, rokh, TFI. etc. Unless you are talking multiboxers you are very apt to see a mix of ships and styles and if you wan the best chance of being called up you will have an assortment handy so you can step into any role. So you bring a couple of BS's and maybe a cruiser or two. This is why I asked for this ship and why I am trying to follow this thread (aside from the debate societies additions) So . . . the basic stats. Is it big enough? Does it fullfill the stated role? Is the tank sufficient? I am NOT asking if it shoudl have jumpdrive, doomsday, hammer4 fittings. Just is it balanced enough that it is not 'safe against all' nor 'a paper bag with a screen door'. m the three areas of point here... is it big enouhg... being able to carrier 2 or 3 battleships is so very much big enough because at present you can not carry that many full fit without jumping through alot of hoops and double wrapping... Does it fill the role... yes it can but only if the last part is tank sufficient... currently no... the tank sufficient to protect the 10 billion to 15 billion worth of cargo ... is wrather pathetic. A well fit tanked orca carrying far less priced cargo can tank with skills, mods, rigs a little over 450,000 ehp and still be very usefull in its roles.... The Bowhead being bigger and designed to carry more expensive cargo should in enturn be tanker then the orca.... Shoot even the worst of the normal frieghters are tanker than the BOWhead at this point. We are hitting 600k ehp in this thing. It is also not designed to have a tank for a 10 billion isk cargo and never will be, you fit that at your own risk.
as stated by devs and the CSM as well as most of the folks who have been working on this thing from the start... it was idea driven for incursioners... and highsec players....
the constant push for gankers/pvpers to be able to kill it in high sec is just gankers/pirates and griefers wanting to make sure they can still get the tears and or pinyatas they enjoy doing now..
This ship again as stated by the devs and the CSMs and many others was and is being brought to light to help highsec and incursioners get around and enjoy their aspect to the game...
You want more PVP... or meat to grind in your low/null grief areas fine push for it in some other thread. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.11.13 08:36:23 -
[25] - Quote
If the Bowhead is purely non combat.. purely designed to just move fitted battleships and the like around then i completely see no reason to add a drone bay...
an ammo bay would be nice... or increase the cargo up to 10k
EHP the base sheild and hull should be better than an Orca or close to a freighter or Rorqual...
high slots... three high slots that could run command monduels would be nice.... no bonuses.. just able to use three at a time for PVE mission runners to tinker and learn command ship or command fleet tactics would be an interesting avenue for this boat...
should it be in any way offensive combat capabile... i say no... it should simply be the high sec mini carrier that adds a safer means for highsec folks to move their fleets around and enjoy the game. |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2014.11.13 08:45:53 -
[26] - Quote
I have to say i also agree with the fella saying give this ship something new or niche.... to bring something new to the chess board..... somthing that would both give it a little more protection and also make it more than a math equation for gankers to figre out how to kill it before concord shows up...
that idea there that it could use POS fuel or somthing to boost its sheild extremely high for as long as it has fuel to burn.. or somthing.... |
Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2014.11.13 08:51:15 -
[27] - Quote
not to mention have this boat with an a seige mode type ability.... that uses "fuel" would also teach newer/high sec folk on how to manage and use capital tactics in highsec.... also would drive the economy for fuel with the endies as well....
further this would also give the bowhead a bit more protection and a "cool" factor to it.
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Fruckton Haulalot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2014.11.13 22:54:56 -
[28] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Bertucio wrote:Masao Kurata wrote:It's irrelevant because the bowheap's peak EHP is much higher than any T1 freighter. .... Irrelevant, since you know as well as I that the current cheap dessy paradigm in Uedama will still be able to take the Bow down - risking a lot less ISK than it's actually worth. If one pilot could fly a large number of ships by remote you would have something resembling a point, as it is you do not.
you sire are mistaken... there are several players who fly multiple ships aka accounts... there are nurmerous players who feild 10 to 20 accounts at a time ...
there are a few... who can and do feild 40 or more accounts at a time for ganking. |
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